🎙 Nadya of Pussy Riot: "We Can Be Truly Unstoppable if We Combine Our Ideals With Tools That Crypto Provides"
In this week’s episode I, speak with Nadya Tolokonnikova, one of the founding members of the feminist punk rock protest collective, Pussy Riot. Nadya has been protesting against repression of individual freedoms in Russia since she was 17. She started Puss...
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In this week’s episode I, speak with Nadya Tolokonnikova, one of the founding members of the feminist punk rock protest collective, Pussy Riot. Nadya has been protesting against repression of individual freedoms in Russia since she was 17. She started Pussy Riot to focus on women and non-binary people as she noticed leadership would always fall on men. The group started performing in the streets of Moscow and were being repeatedly arrested for a few hours at a time, until one day in 2012, Nadya was put in jail for two years, for performing in a church. Her time in prison made her even more convinced to do everything she could to try and make a difference.
She believes art is a more effective vehicle for influencing hearts and minds than politics and that’s why she continues to perform. This year, she discovered she can use cryptocurrency and NFTs as tools to amplify her art, and coordinate people and capital on a global scale. NFTs can be used as a vehicle to both influence opinion, and also raise funds to be used back in Russia, where political adversaries to the government are still being poisoned and jailed. Nadya talks about her past token drops, where she used her own prison sentence as part of the art, and discloses details of future projects.
A heads up that we weren’t able to record for longer than 30 minutes so this will be a short and sweet (and powerful) one.
The podcast was led by Camila Russo, and edited by Alp Gasimov. Transcript was edited by Owen Fernau.
🎙Listen to the interview in this week’s podcast episode here:
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👀 Only paid subscribers have access to the full interview transcript below.
Camila Russo: So you have an incredible trajectory and history as a performance artist, protesting for individual freedoms in Russia, fighting for your ideals, and beliefs has even taken you to prison. And now you're using NFTs and crypto as part of your tools in this art and in your expression.
So, before we get into how crypto falls into all of this, I'd love to get a bit of your background for listeners of The Defiant who might not know what Pussy Riot is, what it stands for, and how you came to start this movement, if you can catch us up on that.
Nadya Tolokonnikova: I have been in performance art since 2006. When I moved to Moscow, I was 16 years old. I moved to Moscow to study philosophy. And I did study philosophy for five years, but quickly realized that it's important for me that words and deeds always come together. So I figured that it's not enough to just study ideas and to question things, but also it was important for me to actually take part in whatever was going on at the time in activist life.
“I did study philosophy for five years, but quickly realized that it's important for me that words and deeds always come together.”
So I became involved in participating and organizing rallies and protests and smaller performance arts situations. And I formed my first protest art group at 17. And then in a few years, I realized that it's not enough to just form a protest art collective, we needed to focus on girls and nonbinary people because we would always be in the shadow of a male with whom we would appear. And it doesn't actually matter how much merit you have, or how smart you are, even if you actually lead the project, if you appear with a male, most likely leadership is going to be attributed to them. And sometimes even, they don't want that to happen as well. Sometimes they just fall into this situation.
“...it doesn't actually matter how much merit you have, or how smart you are, even if you actually lead the project, if you appear with a male, most likely leadership is going to be attributed to them.”
So we decided to start an all girls and nonbinary member collective that we call Pussy Riot. And one of the reasons why we started besides wanting to focus more on underrepresented people, was we wanted to fight Vladamir Putin, he’s the President of Russia for 20 plus years, and he is an extremely unpleasant human being. He kills people when he feels like it. He puts his political opponents in jail, and he's a homophobe, transphobe and misogynist, pretty much everything. He's not a good characterization of my country, because my country is amazing.
So he announced that he's going to be the president a third time without actually asking people what they think about it and that was at the end of 2011. And I couldn't sleep or eat or breathe for three days. I realized I have to do something about it. And I figured that I have to do something with art because this is what I know how to do the best, this is my strong feature. And I feel like with activism, you always have to pick up something that suits you because a lot of people believe that there is just one phase of activism. Like you have to go to a rally, but if you’re not comfortable with that, you don't have to. You know, you can just pick something you're good at and use it for achieving your goals.
“I couldn't sleep or eat or breathe for three days. I realized I have to do something about it. And I figured that I have to do something with art because this is what I know how to do the best, this is my strong feature.”
So I pick art and me and a couple of my girlfriends started Pussy Riot which is a feminist protest art collective. We performed all around Moscow, it was guerilla, art actions on the streets. And we wanted to bring our music and bring our art to people who have not heard of us before.We didn’t want to perform in venues or festivals. We wantedto perform in front of people unexpectedly just breaking the fabric of traditional normal life.
And in six months, after us being really active and being arrested on a daily basis, we had to perform in subway stations. There's no way that you can run from the subway station. So would be arrested for 5-10 hours, sometimes the day, but it never was so serious. And then after six months, I think we really got on the nerves of the government and they decided to really, really lock us up and they put us in prison for two years. And that's how we became internationally known, and we became Time’s women of the year, or whatever like all the Guardians of the world and the traditional big media was writing about us a lot. So that's how we actually gained a bigger platform.
“...after six months, I think we really got on the nerves of the government and they decided to really, really lock us up and they put us in prison for two years.”
And I was like, oh, my God, how could you be so stupid to put us in jail to give us the voice that we have right now. And we use it well. We built successful media companies in France and Russia and the Ukraine and Belarus. We have more than 50 people working at this media company full-time. I think most of my friends who've been there, so they're surprised. They don’t know because of the language barrier, people can’t learn about it, but we are actually, in fact, going to be more successful media moguls than Donald fucking Trump.
CR: Yes. Amazing. Okay. So this incredible experience of protesting after Putin was elected for months, and then landing in jail, after this specific protest at the Orthodox Church, right, in Moscow, that's what got you in jail ultimately.
NT: It was more like a trade center, they could buy items, and they don't have to pay taxes. So at some point in the 90s, they were actually selling alcohol and cigarettes just because they didn't have to pay any taxes. And so that's how the owner became one of the richest guys in Russia.
Impact of Prison
CR: So this experience of landing in jail for your beliefs and for protesting, did that change your attitude towards authority at all? Did it make you more careful? Did it make you more fearful when protesting, or was it the opposite? How did things change after that, I would assume, very traumatic moment of being in jail for two years?
NT: It definitely made me tougher. It made me more convinced. I would do absolutely the same if I could. In 2012, I'd just repeat the same performance. I think I would not trade my life for any other life, it’s unique, it’s backed up in a way that definitely heavily traumatized them and in antidepressants. And I changed million therapists and read 1,000 books on depression and trying to figure out how I can get out of it. It’s really difficult. You know, I still have dreams.
Like, yesterday, I was sleeping in a nice bed, on a nice blanket, on a nice pillow, everything was good, but I was dreaming about being in jail again. And that's what happens with me, like, almost on a regular basis, a couple of times a week, and then I wake up and I remind myself no, this is okay, I'm not in jail. And it takes a toll on everyone's mental health to be locked up. Because, unfortunately, our current penitentiary institutions, pretty much everywhere in the world, they're not for helping people, for correcting people's behavior. If we're reintroducing them to society, we're giving them a helping hand because most of those people just take what they need: they need help.
I’m not saying but everyone, like there are really legit bad people who want to kill someone else and that they legitimately have to be separated from society. But most of the people who ended up there for things like self-defense often, when it comes to women, a lot of women end up in jail because they're trying to defend themselves from domestic violence and they're victims of domestic abuse for dozens of years, and finally, they decide to protect themselves, and it lands them in jail for 10 years. And after that, their life is destroyed, their health, physical health and mental health is destroyed. It’s incredibly sad to watch.
“...a lot of women end up in jail because they're trying to defend themselves from domestic violence and they're victims of domestic abuse for dozens of years, and finally, they decide to protect themselves, and it lands them in jail for 10 years.”
And another big reason why women end up in jail is addiction, and instead of being treated as a disease, it's punished. So a lot of girls come who are HIV positive, and unfortunately, in jail, they're not being provided with adequate medication. So it’s terrible for their health, and some of them are dying. And it was really difficult, not even for myself, but actually to watch all these sad stories of people with their lives being broken by the system, going through me and knowing that I can do so little about it.
“So a lot of girls come who are HIV positive, and unfortunately, in jail, they're not being provided with adequate medication. So it’s terrible for their health, and some of them are dying.”
But also, that anger and that rage and the sadness and trauma that I got made me much more convinced that I have to try to change that. And we started an organization that helps prisoners right after we got out of jail. And when we were inside of the prison we started hunger strikes and wrote open letters, trying to change the system from within, which we actually did. And now my ex-prison warden who is responsible for building the slavery system, he was convicted himself on unfortunately not for a real term, he’s just on probation. But he lost his job, and he lost his social status. And thanks to me, and I can be more happy I made it a goal of my life to punish those men who are rude, who commit wrong actions towards women, especially. So it made my heart more radical, I think. So pretty much the opposite of what they wanted.
Art as a Medium of Activism
CR: It's incredible how your story demonstrates that individuals can make a difference. You can make a difference through your actions, and through your protests, and through art. And speaking of art, what's the role that you see in these actions? Because from the outside, it seems like art is something that is so peaceful, and ethereal and emotional, and maybe you wouldn't assume that it can have real consequences on politics, or enact any sort of change. But of course, your experience says something different. So I'd love your thoughts on that.
NT: I separate micro-politics and macro-politics, but not in a way how it's usually separated in a political sense, but I have my own distinctions. And micro-politics is everything that affects our behavior on a daily basis, like everything that informs us, informs our personality. And art to be consumed in the culture we live in, it's a big part. It influences us, not just influences us, it informs us as individuals and it creates our identities on a daily basis.
And so that’s why identity politics became such a big thing lately because more and more individuals, their understanding and importance of these cultural influences on who we are, and we understand that we're not set in stone for once and for all, once we are born. We’re flexible. And as human beings, it’s in our psyche, in our perception of ourselves and our role in the world are changing every day.
And I feel like politicians, they’ve little to say really, like mostly about our perception of us as individuals. Unless they're really awesome and charismatic, which happens rarely. But most of the time people who will influence us are people who create our movies that we watch and who create packages of cereal to be consumed. And I think it's incredibly important in this cultural signifiers that we surround ourselves with.
“...most of the time people who will influence us are people who create our movies that we watch and who create packages of cereal to be consumed. And I think it's incredibly important, these cultural signifiers that we surround ourselves with.”
So I am just one drop in this ocean of culture, but I hope that I can inspire some people to become more conclusive and encourage gender bending, perceiving gender roles as something that was not given once and for all, but rather than something that we can play with as a fun instrument. I hope that I can encourage people to be more kind to each other and strong but at the same time accept our vulnerabilities.
So, I feel like this is Pussy Riot’s role in life. And my first personal biggest influences were always artists or philosophers, not really the politicians, maybe activists though. But look at 1968, that was basically a cultural moment all across the globe. But personally, the biggest influence was that it created students and philosophers and artists in May 1968 in Paris. And growing up, I really looked up to them. And also, to that cultural shift, literally, the revolutionary shift of paradigms that happened in the beginning of the 20th century all across the globe again. And especially with me, it was important because it was happening in Russia with the Avant Garde movement.
“...my first personal biggest influences were always artists or philosophers, not really the politicians…”
And their passion to change the world and make it a better place was something that fired me up and made me decide that I want to become an artist. And hoping to pass it to next generations. The biggest reward to me of all my activity was meeting younger feminists and LGBTQ+ activists who come to be after seeing me at a concert or somewhere else and they told me that because of this riot actually came out of closet, they made their first feminist action. And it was not someone who sits in the Parliament, it wasn't the president, it was not the UN consular. It was actually just an everyday person like me. And sometimes we become cultural items like Greta Thunberg, she didn't mean it, but she became one and she drives so many people.
NFTs and Ethics
CR: So why decide to use NFTs as a tool to be a part of a culture and be a part of this conversation and movement?
NT: It happened pretty organically. It came to my life organically because I always love to learn about tech. Because looking back in 1917, I was learning how they made their revolution. I'm not a fan of Bolsheviks because they destroyed some of the things that are dear to my heart, like Russian religious philosophy, which had to totally disappear because of their cultural course.
But if you want to be effective, you learn how people did it before. And the first thing they did was they captured all means of communication, which at the time was post offices and telegraphs. So these days, in order to capture means of communication, you need to go digital, because to coordinate on larger scales, on a global scale, you need to know your digital tools. So learning about NFTs and learning about crypto the possibilities it gives… What's really exciting for me is the possibilities the crypto gives beyond monetary applications. Because I think there are people who know much more about finance and much more fluent in this financial language than me, it’s not my role, I don't want to have money, I want to give money to my community. But honestly, bottom line, me and finances, I don’t know.
“...these days, in order to capture means of communication, you need to go digital, because to coordinate on larger scales, on a global scale, you need to know your digital tools.”
But I like things that you can build on top of crypto, on top of blockchain and I had an incredible conversation with Vitalik Buterin, he totally blew my mind, he's the founder of Ethereum. And we talked about how we can build democracy using blockchain, how we can build voting systems and how we can raise money using blockchain technology. And so that makes my heart fire up as an activist because I believe if we combine our passion and ideals with tools that NFTs and crypto provide, then we can be truly unstoppable. If we separate it, then it's not going to be good for activists.
“...I had an incredible conversation with Vitalik Buterin, he totally blew my mind, he's the founder of Ethereum. And we talked about how we can build democracy using blockchain, how we can build voting systems and how we can raise money using blockchain technology.”
Because I know a lot of activists are trying to stay away from tech. And I get their reasoning. It’s dominated by monetarily-driven mostly white rich men. And those are not who I see myself hanging out with on a daily basis. So when I was about to step into a game, I checked myself a million times, like I didn’t sleep again for three days, I was just like, okay, do I really want to do that? But I decided if I wanted to change the game, I have to step in, and just bring members of my community and make it much more inclusive and diverse.
And I think it's happening. The last NFTs week we spent in New York, I think it showed me a lot of imperfections that we still have to work on as a community. But I had so many conversations with people, including white rich guys, who are just after me screaming in their face for seven days in a row being like, you know I have to change it, and they're like okay we have to.
So people are getting convinced. Someone faster, some, slower. But ultimately, I think this is a tool. And it's really important which ethic we apply when we use this tool because I'm not a technocrat in a sense that I do not believe that tech itself, tools themselves, will bring you to a better world. You always have to combine strong ethics and tools.
“I'm not a technocrat in a sense that I do not believe that tech itself, tools themselves, will bring you to a better world. You always have to combine strong ethics and tools.”
Pussy Riot as a DAO
CR: I love that vision. And so I'm thinking Pussy Riot is a collective that anyone can join. It sounds a lot like a DAO, you know, it has that connection to crypto. So I'm wondering if that's what you're thinking for Pussy Riot in the future.
NT: I was joking with my friends that we were the first DAO before DAOs existed. But with a real DAO, like PleasrDAO, it's really, really interesting to see people rediscovering these ancient Greek democracy approaches, and trying to apply them in the modern world and effectively scale it and all problems that we encounter while we do that. For example, like as easy as voter turnout and we’ve seen a lot of PleasrDAO, a lot of people are busy, they are legitimately busy so they don't have time to read the prepositions and actually take their time to go in and sign and then vote for someone.
So we’re trying to figure out how we actually make this direct democracy work. And so far, I'm just part of other DAOs and am on this learning curve. But I feel like at some point, I would love to have a Pussy Riot DAO. But what's important for me is not rushing, and making sure that things are happening at the right time. But I think it might make sense for us at some point.
“...it's really, really interesting to see people rediscovering these ancient Greek democracy approaches, and trying to apply them in the modern world and effectively scale it and all problems that we encounter while we do that.”
NFT Journey
CR: Very cool. Can you talk more about your NFT itself? I love the story behind it.
NT: Well, I made three drops so far. The first one was in the beginning of March, which happened on Foundation, who I love dearly, they really love and support the artists. My first ever drop, one-of-one, generated 100 ETH. I was overwhelmed with support. And so that's how I entered basically. I just entered, received 100 ETH, spread them around all creators who were part of the media and felt really happy and supported. And also, we decided to make sure that they're giving back to the communities so started to buy works of other artists and establish different programs that will to help people to onboard in NFTs, especially women and non-binary people.
“My first ever drop, one-of-one, generated 100 ETH. I was overwhelmed with support. And so that's how I entered basically. I just entered, received 100 ETH, spread them around all creators who were part of the media and felt really happy and supported.”
So that was the beginning and then I decided to just be silent for a second. So I was learning, I was talking to different artists and traveling to places like Miami Bitcoin Conference, which was not about NFTs but I met a lot of people over there. And PleasrDAO and you know, I talked with Beeple and others.
Women of crypto art and web3 that we’re using non-binary community of NFT artists and collectors and developers. So I was just like, I have to shut up for a second and actually learn. So on that period last summer, and then I came back with a drop that was called “Virgin Mary, Please Become a Feminist”which was a one-of-one released on SuperRare. And it was built on top of my prison sentence which was a big emotional moment for me.
As you can imagine, my sentencing papers are not my favorite thing in the world, so I decided to apply some nice and welcoming and warm and just cute images on top of it to balance it and make it less traumatic to myself. So it was one-of-one and then almost at the last second I decided to create a collection because I faced an ethical dilemma. I do represent movement, but when I sell on one-of-one, I cater to a really specific group of people who happen to have a lot of ETH on their hands, for whatever reason.
“...when I sell on one-of-one, I cater to a really specific group of people who happen to have a lot of ETH on their hands, for whatever reason.”
They might be amazing individuals, but they're not the only people who I want to cater to. So I decided to make a collection because they wanted to make it more accessible. And so the minting price was around $400. And so right now it's around 2 ETH, at some point it was 8 ETH. So if someone decided to sell it at 8 ETH, they would generate a lot of money. And that was my thinking. I'm going to create money for members of my community.
“So if someone decided to sell it at 8 ETH, they would generate a lot of money. And that was my thinking. I'm going to create money for members of my community.”
And by the way, disclaimer, if you want to sell my NFT piece, I’m not going to be mad at you. I know some people that are getting weird and strict about it when you sell their personal NFT pieces. So I'm just happy if you make money by buying, minting my artwork or holding it for a while and selling, go for it. I love you.
Future Drops
CR: Nice. And then are you planning anything new? Are you working on other NFT projects or what's coming up?
NT: I am. These are some sketches that we’ll be transforming later into actual pieces. So we are working on something with Gremplin, who created Cryptoadz and is a co-creator of Nounsand he’s an extremely lovely person. He's such a great supporter. So we just have this great union of kind souls.
And we're working on this collection together. There's going to be limited supply. I'm going to tell the number yet but I have it in my mind. It's not going to be a lot. It's going to be under 1,000. And whoever owns an ACAB piece, my genesis collection, they're going to have a mint pass to mint the Gremplin collection. And also I really love to take care of holders of ACAB and I'm hanging with them Discord. We have a gated channel. We have Telegram groups, I'm inviting them to concerts if I perform like that was happening during NFT New York. They were invited to my Friends With Benefits concert and an exhibition that I was taking part in, organized by Metapurse.
“...whoever owns an ACAB piece, my genesis collection, they're going to have a mint pass to mint the Gremplin collection.”
So this ACAB collection is going to be key used for our next few bigger collections. And after Gremplin’s drop we're planning early next year a drop that’s called Big Dick Girls, and we're going to play with different ages and so here you saw baby girl because they're also tough motherfuckers and they say fight like a little girl, but they really know how to fight, so you better not get in their way. And my plan is to make the oldest ladies, the most rare, so they're going to be the most valuable and everyone would want to have an old lady.
NFT Utility Beyond Money
CR: So how do you tie all these NFT experiments back to trying to enact change in Russia? How do you think this can make an impact on your original goal with Pussy Riot and with protest?
NT: Financing the revolution. This is what Putin is ultimately afraid of because he's trying to cut all the resources. He prohibits local businessmen and businesswomen from giving, donating any money to activist causes. And even individual donations are being investigated, sometimes as well because they call you a terrorist organization. Like the second biggest politician in Russia after losing to Putin was poisoned last year, almost murdered, he's in prison now. He's my great friend.
And his organization was just labeled a terrorist organization. So effectively, if you donate to this organization from Russia, you're labeled as supporter of terrorism, which is not good. You can get your bank account frozen. You can end up in jail. So money is definitely really helpful, but also everything that I touch here in my art pieces, it comes back to present reality, Russian reality. I just made a drop during ComplexCon, it was called Eden 66 Utopias and the main image is the Kremlin Wall and I’m writing different slogans including metric, you know, ACAB, Big Dick Girls, Fucking Sugar Mommy, Putin Has To Go on this wall. And it was a big success. So it was sold out in 10 seconds. So I can see that actually this narrative is being supported by so many people internationally. And it somehow all works together really nicely.
“So effectively, if you donate to this organization from Russia, you're labeled as supporter of terrorism, which is not good. You can get your bank account frozen. You can end up in jail.”
CR: I love this. I think this is what crypto is meant to do. It's a way to find an alternative system, to have an alternative to the centralization of power, to authoritarian regimes, this global network to transfer money. It started that way with Bitcoin, but now, NFTs are also becoming a global way to transfer culture. And so I love seeing how you started out with this movement using art to protest, and now crypto is giving you another tool to do this on maybe a more global scale. So I think it's a really inspiring and empowering story. So thank you so much for taking a bit of time to share with me.
NT: Thank you so much. It was a pleasure to talk to you.
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